In this second and final part of the exclusive interview with Radio Tamazuj, the U.S. Special Envoy for Sudan, Tom Perriello, says he hopes that there will be more Sudanese solutions at the Geneva talks planned for 14 August.
He also expects that the actors involved in the war theater in Sudan can come together and accept a countrywide cessation of hostilities.
Below are edited excerpts:
Q: There have been calls for the deployment of an international force in Sudan. What is your take on this?
A: It is something I have been hearing more and more from the Sudanese people. Why not Chapter 7, why not peacekeeping forces? I think those who watch the Security Council generally react that there is no political will right now for that approach. Many of the Sudanese say yes but it is true that not everything about these efforts in the past was successful but they were a key part of saving lives and stabilizing parts of the country.
During our meetings with Sudanese outside Sudan and virtually inside Sudan, I am certainly getting that question more and more; why is the international community not looking at these options?
We hope that we can have more Sudanese solutions by going to the peace talks and seeing the actors come together and accept the national cessation of violence. Also, we can continue to call on the international community to say if not Chapter 7 what are the solutions? The solution can be that we are simply passive, we are watching this level of starvation of civilians, but we are going to continue to work within what is possible to try to stabilize the situation right now.
In the last few months, there has been a lot of work behind the scenes to build different kinds of regional alignment around peace and this is a chance to test that. You have seen in the last weeks; since the invitation went public that there is a tremendous hunger in the Sudanese people, including those who consider themselves very close to SAF, that this is the right time to negotiate before we see more destabilization.
Q: We often hear statements about the Islamists in Sudan planning to come back to power. How influential are they in the current Sudanese politics?
A: The concern raised by many Sudanese people and many people around the region about the Islamist influence or Islamic extremism influence is real. I think it is clear in this context. People mean a number of different overlapping things, whether that is certain, particularly regarding various Islamic extremist actors, whether that is the former National Congress Party (NCP) or even perhaps a rejuvenated NCP, as well as the question of simply authoritarianism that may not much be connected to Islamism but maybe part of a similar coalition.
Looking at all of that, I think some experts again go to that and try to tell, that even among many Sudanese and regional actors, they would mean different things at different times. What is clear across the board is that Sudanese people do not want external actors to determine their future and certainly not to be fueling conflict inside.
On either side of this conflict, people do not want to see violent extremists ruling the country or disrupting the country and do not want to see the kind of failed state dynamics that have caused so much suffering in Somalia and other areas in the region over time. It is a real concern and it is an issue that comes back in the context of this peace negotiation.
Q: We have seen the involvement of Iran and Russia in the ongoing Sudanese crisis in recent months. Is this due to Islamist influence in the military?
A: First of all, when you say Sudan, it is the Sudanese people and I do not think the Sudanese people are looking to have the country more influenced by Russia and Iran than they are looking to be under the influence of the UAE or others.
I think the Sudanese people have been clear for many years and certainly since 2019 that they want the Sudanese people to determine their future. There was a path in that direction and that civilian transition was interrupted. And what you hear more often is that the Sudanese want to be able to define the future of their country and not have that defined by external actors, particularly those that would come in with a more divisive and extreme agenda.
And I think that is something again that many of the civilians are keeping an eye on, whether from the north, south, east, west, or center. And I think right now is a key moment to see how some of those key leaders are looking in terms of putting the people of Sudan first. And I think it is a good time as well to prioritize peace because there is plenty of bright future for Sudan if it gets on that path.
Q: There have been reports of famine in certain parts of Sudan. Have you come across this?
A: There is a good and technical answer to that so let me not make it up. But obviously, we think, no matter what you call it, the situation is dire and it is clear people are starving. I could see that even weeks ago, when I was at Chad’s border, from kids coming across.
I think the international community stepped up in France in terms of getting a much more significant amount of aid around the World and the region. But that was starting from phase one. So, we need to still get more aid to places we can reach as well as continue to increase our ability to reach the areas that we cannot. Certainly, we expect both SAF and RSF to start prioritizing that kind of humanitarian access and protection.
Q: The government keeps on denying that there is famine in Sudan. What is your reaction to that?
A: I find of all the aspects of this crisis, the idea of trying to deny that there is a famine going on, I just find it strange, including the argument that there is a distribution problem. If I am a mother with a kid who has not eaten in 7 days in South Kordofan, it is a famine. I think there is more than enough ability to say for example the primary driver of this famine was RSF destroying farmlands, burning crops, and destroying warehouses, but also some of those SAF’s decisions, particularly about border access and cross-line issues are exacerbating that.
To try to say that no people are starving in Sudan right now is completely false and there is a lot of evidence people can see with their own eyes. And yes, distribution is a problem and that is why we need humanitarian groups to have cross-border and cross-line access.
What do you think is driving the distribution problem? It is a horrific and unacceptable solution. The idea of trying to deny that it exists is just behind thoughts and explanations.
Q: Are you in communication with SAF’s Gen. Burhan or any senior government official? Do they have any demands?
A: Yes, we are in communication with some consistency or respect that currently involves the efforts to mediate the talks and I cannot go into much detail on that. But we have been very flexible and active in trying to make ourselves available for many months to the SAF leadership and we will continue to do so as well continue to pursue to visit Port Sudan and find a way to make that mutual.
Q: What about the leader of RSF, Gen. Mohammed Hamdan Dagalo?
A: Yes, we have communicated the invitation to him and he has communicated the acceptance to that. We also offer both sides an extension of pre-meeting to prepare for the negotiations and they have engaged with us constructively in that effort so far.
We have remained in communication with SAF leadership and we do not yet have a formal answer. There are some rumors that they might have conveyed one, but let’s see if that comes true.
We chatted with both parties for about five to six weeks about the idea that this would be a new formal initiative and gave people time before the invitation to engage. But as we talk about invitations obviously, the real issue here is whether we are serious about getting a cessation of violence. The hope is not that we get the parties to Geneva. The point is to get a peace deal in Sudan. We will certainly use all of our energy and incarnation in the United States to do our part, but obviously, that would be in conjunction with the Sudanese people who have been so keen on informing this. I had the chance to meet now with thousands of Sudanese people, including those inside virtually over and over again.
The overwhelming message has been: Please silence the guns, give food and medicine and please protect the people, and in the short term, the urgent need for a political process Sudanese people must control. We are going to continue to go forward based on what we heard from the Sudanese people in consultation with the relevant parties.
I really want to commend Secretary Blinken and President Biden in the White House, they have taken real leadership over here and said this is something that needs to happen. We will continue to pursue every option we can to try to help the Sudanese people solve this crisis.
Q: Why have the talks been changed to Geneva and not continued in Jeddah? Does this magnify the weak relations between Saudi Arabia and the UAE?
A: We are continuing to work in a very close partnership with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. They are very committed to the Sudanese people and peace. There is a general agreement that for this round, Geneva would be well situated for various reasons and we continue to see that this is an extension of the Jeddah process.
And as one would do in a conflict that has gone on for 15 months, you try to adapt and adjust based on lessons learned. We think, and the Saudis agree, that we have been able to trust in positive lessons from the several processes and contributions. Nobody cares who is getting credited for this, we only care that we can solve this crisis. So, we want to draw from each of those experiences and we think this is a continued effort to try to build on the successes of the past and we hope that we will not just get there but again get a deal. That is the key and that is the standard that would be just for the Sudanese people.
Even if we face additional hurdles, that is not going to prevent us from moving forward. We will continue to adjust as the conditions do, but I think we have seen even in the last weeks, just how intense is the desire of the Sudanese people for peace. They are hungry for leadership in the country and leadership that takes them to peace and I think as we see each day during headlines, that there is a cost every day waiting and so for us this is the right time to do this. In fact, yesterday was the right time to do it but today is still better and we will look forward to, hopefully, some success.